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Old 01/09/2019, 11:35 AM   #1
Uncle99
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Dose same amounts of ALK & CA?

90g mixed, a lot of Stoney corals and Clams,running 24 months.
I began dosing about a year ago, using Seachem Fusion 1&2, about 5ml daily both to keep those two at ALK 9 and CA 430. While Mag has stayed at 1350, about three months ago ALK started to drop. So over those three months I have increased the ALK, From 5ml to 15ml per day to keep ALK stable at 9.
But CA has remained at 420-430 throughout this change.

I thought Corals consumed virtually the same amount of both ALK and CA?
I understand that I should be dosing the same amount.

Is that true? Can someone comment on that?


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Old 01/09/2019, 12:29 PM   #2
Vinny Kreyling
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You dose what you need.
That does not correlate to = parts in most cases.


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Old 01/09/2019, 06:28 PM   #3
Uncle99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny Kreyling View Post
You dose what you need.
That does not correlate to = parts in most cases.
Not dosing equally is supposed to be one of the top ten mistakes made by reefers........and if the poster did not have a stunning tank, I would have discarded. Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.

My SPS are pushing out Skelton quickly, and fattening by the base, everybody is happy, just don't want to make any major mistakes.

Thanks for taking the time to help!

Panic overted!


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Old 01/09/2019, 08:02 PM   #4
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The corals are consuming the supplements at a fixed ratio, although other things can happen to skew the balance. Water changes often are enough to keep the calcium level in line, because there's so much more of it in the saltwater. I am not sure what's happening here, but I suspect the consumption rate is very close to 1:1. This article might help, though:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm


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Old 01/10/2019, 06:17 AM   #5
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The corals are consuming the supplements at a fixed ratio, although other things can happen to skew the balance. Water changes often are enough to keep the calcium level in line, because there's so much more of it in the saltwater. I am not sure what's happening here, but I suspect the consumption rate is very close to 1:1. This article might help, though:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm
Yup, that’s an excellent article on the subject.
Thank you for your help.


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Old 01/10/2019, 10:21 PM   #6
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You're welcome.


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Old 01/11/2019, 02:15 PM   #7
Vinny Kreyling
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Learned something here.


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Old 01/11/2019, 03:15 PM   #8
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Dang, I've been here so many years, and this question has come up, and frustrated me personally so many times, and somehow, I missed that article (having read every other reefkeeping article posted by bertoni, and most of them generally).

Thanks for sharing bertoni. I bet that link answers 1/3 of the questions that come up around here


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Old 01/11/2019, 09:06 PM   #9
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You're all welcome. It's a good article.


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Old 01/14/2019, 10:43 AM   #10
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So in effect the balling method in equal parts really does not work for most supplements? I am struggling with this exact challenge right now using AF Component 123+ My alkaliny dose is almost double my dose for Ca and MG components and I still have to supplement with 4 grams of the kh Buffer daily


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Old 01/14/2019, 10:57 AM   #11
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Thanks for posting Bert


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Old 01/14/2019, 08:11 PM   #12
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You're welcome.


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Old 01/17/2019, 08:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
You're welcome.
I thought there was only 1 video on this subject.

In fact, There are a number of tubes from reefers which claim years of experience and show tanks which are unbelievable stating that ALK and CA MUST be dosed in equal parts if you want your Stoneys to grow and have your tank look like theirs.

Not one of them talk about testing or maintaining appropriate ranges??????

Very strange, maybe it's me and I missed the train but these claims appear to be totally unfounded and if followed, may lead to the demise of your tank.

Thank goodness members provided supporting evidence to this disprove these claims.....and a super lesson on being careful on what you read and see.


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Old 01/17/2019, 07:39 PM   #14
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I'm not sure why people become so dogmatic, but it is a common phenomenon.


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Old 01/22/2019, 08:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle99 View Post
I thought there was only 1 video on this subject.

In fact, There are a number of tubes from reefers which claim years of experience and show tanks which are unbelievable stating that ALK and CA MUST be dosed in equal parts if you want your Stoneys to grow and have your tank look like theirs.

Not one of them talk about testing or maintaining appropriate ranges??????

Very strange, maybe it's me and I missed the train but these claims appear to be totally unfounded and if followed, may lead to the demise of your tank.

Thank goodness members provided supporting evidence to this disprove these claims.....and a super lesson on being careful on what you read and see.
Out of couriosity where do you fall in the reasons why your “imbalanced” in the Alk usage?
Does you water change water match your tank?
Are you using RO/DI water?
Does your tank have high nutrients?

For me that article pointed out that more often then not, the reality is that a balanced input is what is needed. Even though it doesn’t seem as such.
Personally I have only ever added one over the other to balance out a fresh fill on a tank. I personally have never had to dose more Alk over calcium.

My questions are to gain knowledge of someone else’s experiences and whether you truly evaluated your situation or simply saw that “it’s possible” and decided that’s what’s going on without truly knowing.


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Old 01/23/2019, 09:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by 2_zoa View Post
Out of couriosity where do you fall in the reasons why your “imbalanced” in the Alk usage?
Does you water change water match your tank?
Are you using RO/DI water?
Does your tank have high nutrients?

For me that article pointed out that more often then not, the reality is that a balanced input is what is needed. Even though it doesn’t seem as such.
Personally I have only ever added one over the other to balance out a fresh fill on a tank. I personally have never had to dose more Alk over calcium.

My questions are to gain knowledge of someone else’s experiences and whether you truly evaluated your situation or simply saw that “it’s possible” and decided that’s what’s going on without truly knowing.
Too answer those questions:
-yes, not a perfect match, but close.
-absolutely
-5 ppm nitrate......0.05 phosphate.....not high in my mind


Those videos led me to believe that good coral growth came from adding the same amount of ALK, as CA. They implied that when you add 2 part, if you add 10 ml of ALK, you add 10 ml of CA.

I just don't get the logic. Salt mix, frequency of change, nutrients, all have impacts in the dosing, i.e., I would only dose what is required to maintain the ranges I have chosen which I feel work best in a mixed reef environment.

Maybe my tank is odd, but if I was to follow the equal amounts rule, CA would go way beyond my 420-440 rule.

What I found strange in the videos, was throughout, there was no mention of testing.....it reminds me of 20 years ago......just dump equal parts of both and your good to go.

It's not really a big deal, my reading of the article may differ from yours, and perhaps both ways are good.

I really can't answer your last question. I went with three facts.
1.-I have been dosing to maintain ranges and the amount are not equal for more than 20 years.
2.-I have had no negative effects from this.
3.-I could be wrong but some very experienced reefers seemed to concur in their posts

Again, maybe you are correct and equal dosing is required, I just can't take that risk with thousands of dollars of corals, based on a logic, which at least to me, seems flawed..



Last edited by Uncle99; 01/23/2019 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 01/23/2019, 05:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Uncle99 View Post
Too answer those questions:
-yes, not a perfect match, but close.
-absolutely
-5 ppm nitrate......0.05 phosphate.....not high in my mind


Those videos led me to believe that good coral growth came from adding the same amount of ALK, as CA. They implied that when you add 2 part, if you add 10 ml of ALK, you add 10 ml of CA.

I just don't get the logic. Salt mix, frequency of change, nutrients, all have impacts in the dosing, i.e., I would only dose what is required to maintain the ranges I have chosen which I feel work best in a mixed reef environment.

Maybe my tank is odd, but if I was to follow the equal amounts rule, CA would go way beyond my 420-440 rule.

What I found strange in the videos, was throughout, there was no mention of testing.....it reminds me of 20 years ago......just dump equal parts of both and your good to go.

It's not really a big deal, my reading of the article may differ from yours, and perhaps both ways are good.

I really can't answer your last question. I went with three facts.
1.-I have been dosing to maintain ranges and the amount are not equal for more than 20 years.
2.-I have had no negative effects from this.
3.-I could be wrong but some very experienced reefers seemed to concur in their posts

Again, maybe you are correct and equal dosing is required, I just can't take that risk with thousands of dollars of corals, based on a logic, which at least to me, seems flawed..
As I mentioned I was mainly interested in your definitions within your experiences. Your answer to me say you actually processed the info and applied it to your situation and you were truly after a “hey please confirm I’m not crazy”. Which is awesome. I had no idea you’ve had wet sleeves for 20 years.

I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of people’s situations are from pulling the trigger on half notions. I’m certainly guilty of that on more than one occasion and honestly. My understanding of 2 part is from that article which I read years ago. Which, what I take from the article. Is to put in the calcium at equal parts even though it doesn’t feel right, and based on my testing of my tanks. It has held true. Although....I’ve never had a packed tank of sps. I don’t find them interesting enough to own. I enjoy a mixed reef personally. I’ve also never owned a large tank. A 65 is as large of a tank as I’m willing to live around. Perhaps that’s why my experiences are a bit different?

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


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Old 01/23/2019, 08:30 PM   #18
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As I mentioned I was mainly interested in your definitions within your experiences. Your answer to me say you actually processed the info and applied it to your situation and you were truly after a “hey please confirm I’m not crazy”. Which is awesome. I had no idea you’ve had wet sleeves for 20 years.

I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of people’s situations are from pulling the trigger on half notions. I’m certainly guilty of that on more than one occasion and honestly. My understanding of 2 part is from that article which I read years ago. Which, what I take from the article. Is to put in the calcium at equal parts even though it doesn’t feel right, and based on my testing of my tanks. It has held true. Although....I’ve never had a packed tank of sps. I don’t find them interesting enough to own. I enjoy a mixed reef personally. I’ve also never owned a large tank. A 65 is as large of a tank as I’m willing to live around. Perhaps that’s why my experiences are a bit different?

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
We are the same in size and type, but chemistry is where we differ.
I think as long as ALK is on-point, a higher availability of calcium may not be an issue.


Cheers!


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Old 01/23/2019, 10:22 PM   #19
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I certainly agree that alkalinity is more of an issue in terms of maintenance, since there's so little of it in the tank, comparatively. Calcium levels generally remain acceptable even when alkalinity is an issue.


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Old 01/23/2019, 11:52 PM   #20
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Yes dose same amount of each and raise both if needed. Corals consume exactly 20 ppm of calcium for each 1 meq/l (2.8 dKH)of alkalinity. If your cal or alk is being consumed differently then its not your corals consuming whatever is being consumed more. Many reason that could cause this, including your test kits being inaccurate or not having enough magnesium. Mr. Randy holmes is an expert regarding the matter and am sure he can explain the chemistry behind it or you can read his articles. And by the way i believe he invented 2 part dosing. Good luck.


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Old 01/24/2019, 10:00 AM   #21
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Yes dose same amount of each and raise both if needed. Corals consume exactly 20 ppm of calcium for each 1 meq/l (2.8 dKH)of alkalinity. If your cal or alk is being consumed differently then its not your corals consuming whatever is being consumed more. Many reason that could cause this, including your test kits being inaccurate or not having enough magnesium. Mr. Randy holmes is an expert regarding the matter and am sure he can explain the chemistry behind it or you can read his articles. And by the way i believe he invented 2 part dosing. Good luck.
Thanks for the reply.
It's not a consumption question, I would agree consumption is equal parts.
The question was why some hobbists suggest to dose equal amounts of ALK and CA, (and if this puts them in the required ranges then fine).

I dose only what is needed on a daily basis to keep ALK, Ca, and Mag in the desired range, maintaining stability in those ranges is important to me.

There's roughly 3 times CA than ALK, and roughly 3 times MG than CA, so from a numbers perspective equal dosing doesn't make sense, or a least to me.

I have been dosing, testing and recording weekly for two years now and while both have increased due to growth, I dose 3 times the ALK than CA. when I do this, i end up with.

ALK 10
CA 440

So if I dosed the same amount CA as ALK, would these not increase CA outside the desired range?



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Old 01/24/2019, 10:44 AM   #22
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I would find out what is causing your alk to drop 3 months ago. The whole point of two part dosing is to acheive ionic balance between cal and alk.. cal and alk interact with one another, if alk goes up cal comes down and vice versa. Ionic balance is when the two are in balance, equilibrium 1/1 ratio. Saltwater in your system can only hold so much alk n cal at same time.Two part dosing or kalk dosing ensure that 1/1 ratio of alk n cal, ionic balance for corals consumption. I would not chase that "ideal" number for alk and cal by adding more alk than cal or vice versa, instead aim for iconic balance. Good luck!


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Old 01/24/2019, 11:01 AM   #23
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Yes dose same amount of each and raise both if needed. Corals consume exactly 20 ppm of calcium for each 1 meq/l (2.8 dKH)of alkalinity. If your cal or alk is being consumed differently then its not your corals consuming whatever is being consumed more.
Correct, and nobody is disputing that. It has just been pointed out that indeed they are used at different rates within the broader "aquarium" context.

Quote:
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Many reason that could cause this, including your test kits being inaccurate or not having enough magnesium. Mr. Randy holmes is an expert regarding the matter and am sure he can explain the chemistry behind it or you can read his articles. And by the way i believe he invented 2 part dosing. Good luck.
I don't think that either test kits or low/high magnesium would cause this. I believe it would be the use of one or the other that would cause this. The issue is that there there are processes besides calcium coral skeleton building that happen in your aquarium that will contribute to the slight acidification and hence reduction in buffering that the alkalinity is holding, leading to higher use of ALK than calcium. I think any digestion process or breaking down of nutrients and the nitrogen cycle would qualify as that, since I believe waste products are often acidic.

Also, I doubt Dr. Holmes-Farley invented 2 part dosing. I believe 2 part dosing had been around for a long time before he was likely involved in the hobby (I think ESV has been producing products for at least 20-30 years for the hobby now, and were featured in some of the earlier hobbyist books published in the 1990s, and I suspect have a much longer history than that; I also doubt they invented 2 part dosing).

Randy Holmes-Farley is/was a major contributor to ReefCentral, ReefKeeping Magazine, and the hobby at large, and is still quite active on other forums, so I don't mean to downplay his significant contribution to the hobby, I'm just trying to set the record straight. Also, the earlier linked article, written by Randy, specifically discussed why Calcium and Alkalinity don't usually get used at the same rates, just to tie back to your first point.

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I would find out what is causing your alk to drop 3 months ago. The whole point of two part dosing is to acheive ionic balance between cal and alk.. cal and alk interact with one another, if alk goes up cal comes down and vice versa. Ionic balance is when the two are in balance, equilibrium 1/1 ratio. Saltwater in your system can only hold so much alk n cal at same time.Two part dosing or kalk dosing ensure that 1/1 ratio of alk n cal, ionic balance for corals consumption. I would not chase that "ideal" number for alk and cal by adding more alk than cal or vice versa, instead aim for iconic balance. Good luck!
I think you definitely need to chase the ideal number of alk or cal by adding one or the other, and often you'll need to add both, to get them both up to their ideal ranges. The trick here is to not add them to the tank together, and don't add too much at once.

When adding alkalinity, be sure to add it in a high-flow area, and add it slowly, and only add small amounts at a time, since it significantly increases PH in the localized area, which could burn fishes or corals (don't worry too much, but just be reasonable to not "cloud" the fish as it's being added). Calcium doesn't impact pH, so it's not as big of a deal to add more of it at once.

The nice thing about calcium too is that if you "overdose" it, it really just precipitates out, lowering your calcium and wasting your time and money, but it won't really hurt any inhabitants. Overdosing alkalinity can swing the entire tank pH and cause significant damage and death to fishes and corals.


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Old 01/24/2019, 11:07 AM   #24
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It would be nice for dr. Holmes farley to comment on this.. also this is a good article for you.

https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/20...art-additives/


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Old 01/24/2019, 11:22 AM   #25
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I was just reponding to uncle99 in attempt to improve his situation is all. No need to argue over personal knowlege lol.


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