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Old 10/31/2018, 07:37 AM   #1
jacksonpt
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drain-to-sump plumbing question

Currently I've got 2 glass holes boxes that drain straight into my DIY sump - no frills, nothing special or interesting. It works, it's about as reliable as it gets. But... it's fairly loud (water splashing as it enters the sump), and there is a fair bit of splash/salt creep.

I'm thinking about redoing the plumbing where the drains enter the sump in hopes of reducing both noise and splash/salt creep. Does the mock-up below make sense? Is that a good option? Anything you change or some other alternative you'd recommend?

While I can't really undo the glass holes boxes without significant work, I can do pretty much anything with the drain lines and sump.


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Last edited by jacksonpt; 10/31/2018 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 10/31/2018, 09:24 AM   #2
mcgyvr
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Not enough data to do anything but guess..
My initial comment is that I would never combine drain lines (which it seems like you are doing I guess)


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Old 10/31/2018, 06:15 PM   #3
Daddyrawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonpt View Post
Currently I've got 2 glass holes boxes that drain straight into my DIY sump - no frills, nothing special or interesting. It works, it's about as reliable as it gets. But... it's fairly loud (water splashing as it enters the sump), and there is a fair bit of splash/salt creep.

I'm thinking about redoing the plumbing where the drains enter the sump in hopes of reducing both noise and splash/salt creep. Does the mock-up below make sense? Is that a good option? Anything you change or some other alternative you'd recommend?

While I can't really undo the glass holes boxes without significant work, I can do pretty much anything with the drain lines and sump.
off topic, how do you like your refugium? ever get algae?


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Old 11/01/2018, 03:52 AM   #4
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It's not the way you have your pipes that is causing the splashing and salt creep, it's the corrugations that is causing it. Switch to smooth piping either hard or soft and I think you'll find that the creep and splashing will stop.


EDIT:
Now that I look at it better, is that spa flex? If so it is smooth on the inside. What sort of drain are you running? Durso, herbie, or bean animal? If it's a Durso then your pushing to much water down the pipe, if either of the other 2, then you do not have a true siphon going and air is entering the siphon line causing the splashing. Again pushing too much water down the pipes and not allowing for a complete siphon to start. In either case it may just be a matter of turning the return pump down(either with a valve or oif it's a DC pump turning it down), or closing the valve on the drain line some.


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Old 11/01/2018, 06:24 AM   #5
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off topic, how do you like your refugium? ever get algae?
I like it, my tank definitely does better with it. Between it and a lawnmower blenny, I get enough algae that I have to clean the glass a couple of times per week, but the rocks stay very clean.


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Old 11/01/2018, 06:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by homer1475 View Post
It's not the way you have your pipes that is causing the splashing and salt creep, it's the corrugations that is causing it. Switch to smooth piping either hard or soft and I think you'll find that the creep and splashing will stop.


EDIT:
Now that I look at it better, is that spa flex? If so it is smooth on the inside. What sort of drain are you running? Durso, herbie, or bean animal? If it's a Durso then your pushing to much water down the pipe, if either of the other 2, then you do not have a true siphon going and air is entering the siphon line causing the splashing. Again pushing too much water down the pipes and not allowing for a complete siphon to start. In either case it may just be a matter of turning the return pump down(either with a valve or oif it's a DC pump turning it down), or closing the valve on the drain line some.

Yes, it is spa flex. I have 2 glass holes overflow boxes, so no siphon is in play.


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Old 11/01/2018, 06:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by jacksonpt View Post
Yes, it is spa flex. I have 2 glass holes overflow boxes, so no siphon is in play.

I see now!


It's a simple durso setup. Again regulate the flow going into your sump either by throttling down the pump, or adding a gate valve to the pumps return line.



Water in a durso setup should just sheet down the walls of the pipe, it should never fully suck water into the pipe. This is where the turbulence comes from and subsequent splashing noise comes from.



Durso are not designed for a lot of flow, and when pushed to max is when they get noisy(sucking noise), and start splashing/crashing into the sump.


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Old 11/01/2018, 07:31 AM   #8
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Thanks for the help.

I know this type of overflow isn't the best option, but I'm kind of married to it at this point. I have, in the past, dialed flow way back to quiet the drains... and it does in deed work. But flow ends up being soooo sloowwww... there is basically no noticable water movement through the sump. Obviously water is moving, but the flow isn't visible, if that makes sense. I was hoping to find some kind of happy medium.

Maybe my best bet is to go with a DC pump that I can control with my Apex... run it at "normal" flow/power during the day when noise matters less, and dial it back at night when I'm more sensitive to it. Then add some kind of basic plexi lid/cover to the drain area to help contain the splash and salt creep.

I've got a pair of MP10s in my display, so I'm not terribly worried about flow in the the display. I guess, at least for now, I'll T my return back into the sump to keep decent flow through the sump/fuge.


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Old 11/01/2018, 01:57 PM   #9
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why do you want so much flow through the sump?

if you adjust flow during night/day your sump level will rise at night and fall during the day. just something to think about.


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Old 11/01/2018, 05:35 PM   #10
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I don't want "so much" flow... I just want to avoid stagnant water.


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Old 11/02/2018, 06:51 AM   #11
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I have slow flow through the sump, couldn't tell you the gph but enough where it's quiet and I just added an mj400 to my fuge to keep the chaeto tumbling.

I've been using the Jaebao dcp 6500 at like 45% for a 90 gallon. Had it 8 months and so far so good.

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Old 11/02/2018, 01:58 PM   #12
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To reduce/eliminate the splashing into the sump, I use a PVC "T" fitting on the end, placed so that the leg of the T is just above the water level in the sump, and one arm ~1-2" below the surface. This allows the air to escape before it gets to the water. What size GH overflows? I use a single GH 1500gph overflow on my 120DT with a eheim 1262 wide open as the return pump. Mine is virtually silent.

And FWIW - not only can you reduce the (AC) return pumps flow using a valve without hurting it, it will actually reduce it's energy consumption as well. Al that you are doing with that is simulating a higher head pressure.


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Old 11/06/2018, 11:14 AM   #13
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I've got 2 overflows, if memory serves, both are 900gph with 1.5" drain lines straight to the sump. I also have a 1262 as a return, throttled WAY back. My tank is only a 3' 39gallon.

For now, I restricted return flow even further, and T-ed off my return back into the sump to get a bit more flow through the skimmer/fuge. It's now silent with zero splashing, so that fixed both of my primary concerns. I'm monitoring water quality and coral happiness to see if there are any repercussions related to flow/turnover.


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Old 11/07/2018, 01:51 AM   #14
Gary the reefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonpt View Post
Currently I've got 2 glass holes boxes that drain straight into my DIY sump - no frills, nothing special or interesting. It works, it's about as reliable as it gets. But... it's fairly loud (water splashing as it enters the sump), and there is a fair bit of splash/salt creep.

I'm thinking about redoing the plumbing where the drains enter the sump in hopes of reducing both noise and splash/salt creep. Does the mock-up below make sense? Is that a good option? Anything you change or some other alternative you'd recommend?

While I can't really undo the glass holes boxes without significant work, I can do pretty much anything with the drain lines and sump.
I would say change your overflow to a herbie and put a gate valve on the drain to slow it down, this will help with the noise.


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Old 11/12/2018, 09:00 AM   #15
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For now, I restricted return flow even further, and T-ed off my return back into the sump to get a bit more flow through the skimmer/fuge. It's now silent with zero splashing, so that fixed both of my primary concerns. I'm monitoring water quality and coral happiness to see if there are any repercussions related to flow/turnover.
So far the only thing I've noticed is a cooling of the display due to the low flow rate from sump to display. There is about a 7degree difference between my display and my sump. I'm slowly increasing temp to get my display back above 75.

Is there a consensus on how warm is too warm for my sump? I do have a small fuge and want to maintain the critters in it. It's currently at 80 +/- 1 degree, but it'll probably raise another 2 degrees or so to get my display up where it should be.


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Old 11/14/2018, 11:34 AM   #16
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The 7 degrees difference seems a bit strange. I would think you would want enough flow to keep the sump and display within a degree of each other. Is there a way to convert the two overflows into a bean animal style? With a full siphon, you want the drain fully submerged in the sump, which eliminates splashing, salt creep, and most of the noise.

Full siphon on one overflow, and then use the other overflow as the trickle/emergency line.


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Old 11/14/2018, 12:38 PM   #17
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The 7 degrees difference seems a bit strange. I would think you would want enough flow to keep the sump and display within a degree of each other. Is there a way to convert the two overflows into a bean animal style? With a full siphon, you want the drain fully submerged in the sump, which eliminates splashing, salt creep, and most of the noise.

Full siphon on one overflow, and then use the other overflow as the trickle/emergency line.
I've got it to where there is a consistent 4-5 degree difference between what my apex reads in my sump and what my little red mercury thermometer reads in my display. That's the best I can do while keeping noise tolerable.

Clearly moving away from the glass holes boxes would be my best bet... but I can't take that on right now. I'm going modify my drain lines to hopefully better manage the noise/splashing at higher flow rates, thus allowing for better turnover between the sump and display... which will help both temperature issues and water quality.





I have some time off between christmas and new years... if the plumbing changes don't completely fix the problem, I'll probably try removing the glass holes boxes then and figuring out a way to run a herbie or bean. The time off allows me time to deal with problems or emergencies that may arise, like a cracked tank (worse case scenario).


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Old 11/14/2018, 01:15 PM   #18
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Solid plan. I'm looking at setting up a new tank, and the new low-profile bean-animal style overflows look pretty good. Synergy, Reef Savvy Ghost, Modular Marine, Exotic Marine all have variants. I think Exotic Marine is my favorite - I don't like teeth on an overflow. I bet you could find one that is close to your geometry, might just have to add another drilled hole.


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Old 11/14/2018, 01:31 PM   #19
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Solid plan. I'm looking at setting up a new tank, and the new low-profile bean-animal style overflows look pretty good. Synergy, Reef Savvy Ghost, Modular Marine, Exotic Marine all have variants. I think Exotic Marine is my favorite - I don't like teeth on an overflow. I bet you could find one that is close to your geometry, might just have to add another drilled hole.
I have a 2-drain eshopps box already that I plan to replace one of the glass holes boxes with... if I can get the box/bulkhead out. The internal box is almost identical in size as my glass holes box, so the swap should be pretty straight forward. Ideally the eshopps will be the syphon and the trickle, and the remaining glass holes box will teh be dry emergency. If things don't like up right, I'll just plug the remaining glass holes box and run a herbie with the eshopps box.

The big question is whether or not I can get the glass holes box off. I'm hopeful, but not optimistic.


And yes... I saw your thread. I'm looking forward to your build.


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Old 11/14/2018, 05:30 PM   #20
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So far, so good. Not the "virtually silent" I had read it might be, but a definite improvement. I'll give it a day or two before I decided if it's good enough or needs further tweaking.

Before and after pics for those interested.


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Jackson
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Old 11/16/2018, 01:27 PM   #21
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I've got it to where there is a consistent 4-5 degree difference between what my apex reads in my sump and what my little red mercury thermometer reads in my display. That's the best I can do while keeping noise tolerable.
Are you sure both thermometers read the same? I have seen more than 4 degree differences in hobby thermometers. Put them in the same are for a while to stabilize and compare them. I would be surprised if the read the same.


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Old 11/16/2018, 05:18 PM   #22
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I'll double check that... Thanks for the suggestion.


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