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Old 01/12/2019, 02:05 PM   #51
ohashimz
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Btw appreciate all the knowledge you are sharing with me...I am an engineer and absolut data driven human being. I am drinking all this knowledge that is being dropped here...so thank you

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Old 01/12/2019, 02:16 PM   #52
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The head curve published by us is without the quick couplers. The native output of an L1 without quick coupler is actually 1.5”. Reducing it to 3/4” is a pretty big reduction. Additionally, removing the input quick coupler will inprove performance. The native input is 2” without coupler. Also, placing the pump on a watt meter is a vital piece of information to understand whats really going on with your system, regardless of the product used.

Pumps are not a simple device to install and extract the maximum potential from. Your original post assumed the pump was weak but it actually turned out to be user error as you are the only who selected the max flow when performing caibration then measured this maximum and blamed the pump. L1 volutes are designed for larger systems than a simple return function and given your plumbing it may not have been the most appropriate choice.

Other people are chiming in here to help you but I get the impression from your posts here and your posts on another popular forum that you have made up your mind. That is your decision and I respect that but at this point it seems like we’re beating a dead horse.


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Old 01/12/2019, 02:24 PM   #53
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Again I remind you that most standard tanks have a drill hole for a bulk heads that transition to 3/4" loc line hoes.
My pvc out of the bulk head is 1", but all the line locs hose in the market are 3/4" meaning there is no escaping they eventually we need 3/4" at the end of the return line.

Not to beat on ecotech any more:
here is the conclusion am getting from reading between the lines:
Saying not all pumps are the same for me means: this is what it is, the performance am observing is vectra l1 capabilities.

Saying vectra have 1.5" outlet and reduction impact vectra means: Vectra is not the right pump for standard tanks, and not suitable for tanks that requires above 700 800 gph return. Which if we apply the 5 to 10 times turn around means anything above 50 to 100gallon tanks.

I now feel much more at peace buying and RD3 which is not that much cost diffrence from vectra, or syncra 5.0 which more than half the price of vectra...
I just wished such data was available before I spent 500$ on vectra ha ha.

I am still super happy with every other ecotech I own which are many...

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Last edited by ohashimz; 01/12/2019 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 01/12/2019, 02:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ohashimz View Post
You know all standard tanks requires bulk head that transition to 3/4" right?
Byw am asking here not challanging. Is my understanding correct?
If answer is yes, then vectra is not suitable to standard tanks....I know am being too harsh here, I say again I hold ecotech to such high standard.
I buy them over everyone else...true word

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Different size tanks have different bulkhead fittings. I normally specify the bulkhead sizes for my desired flow in conjunction with the pumps I am going to be using and pretty much all of my installs are custom so I get the luxury of specifying those kinds of details. 1” bulkheads going through the bottom are pretty standard though on mid size tanks just as are the 3/4” bulkheads for the return lines for locline and I do think there are things you can do to improve the flow by making some plumbing changes. Just increasing the size of the flow meter will have an impact right out of the gate. Increasing the union fitting below the bulkhead to a 1.25” or 1.5” union will help a bit too. Reducing the amount of lock line in the over flow and going to a 3/4” curved 90 or even an elbow would help some. Heck, going to 1” elbows connected to the back of those lockline bulkheads and running 1” from the Wye to the 1” elbows would be an improvement over the 3/4” you have in there now since the 3/4” barb fittings create a lot of friction losses too. Point being that there are ways to improve the efficiency of your plumbing which will result in decreased head loss and greater flow/efficiency from your pump.

That said, the L1 is a larger pump with a larger diameter output so reducing it down will have more of an impact on the L1 than it would on a smaller pump such as the M1 which I eluded to in my previous responses. In this case, the Vectra L1 may not be the best choice for your application unless you can reduce friction losses. The Vectra M1 may result in similar performance because it would see less head loss (with your existing plumbing) due to it being a 3/4” output. If you were running a manifold to feed other devices such as reactors or a chiller, then the L1 could be split and you could take advantage of the flow without having as much of an impact on the return flow as diverting some of the flow would in theory reduce the friction losses up above. I know that may seem counter intuitive but much of that pumps output is being bottlenecked by the plumbing so you could rob flow from it for a manifold without impacting the return flow much if any.


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Old 01/12/2019, 02:35 PM   #55
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I was referring to the loc lines. I have never seen loc lines more than 3/4"...these are the standards

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Old 01/12/2019, 02:39 PM   #56
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The head curve published by us is without the quick couplers. The native output of an L1 without quick coupler is actually 1.5”. The native input is 2” without coupler.
That puts his head with friction losses closer to 14’ based on my calculations which is more in line with his flow meter readings. By the way Tim, I commend you for chiming in here. I’ve always put Ecotech on a pedestal when it comes to quality and support and it’s good to see your input and going above and beyond to help him. Especially on the weekend.

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I was referring to the loc lines. I have never seen loc lines more than 3/4"...these are the standards

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Me neither. I wish they made 1” loclines!


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Old 01/12/2019, 02:43 PM   #57
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So my earlier conclusions hold ground lol...oh man I had the wrong impression of vectra...

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Old 01/12/2019, 02:50 PM   #58
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So my earlier conclusions hold ground lol...oh man I had the wrong impression of vectra...

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I don’t think this is a case of the Vectra falling short. I think it’s a case of not understanding the impacts of friction on actual head loss. As I said above, the output size of the pump has a direct impact on the impact plumbing will have on ultimate head/friction loss. I’d bet switching that flow meter from a 1” to a 1.5” would make a huge difference. I have spare ones here and took one and blew through it and they are surprisingly restrictive when it comes to friction loss due to the paddle wheel. Also, like Tim suggested, try taking the union nut off the intake of the pump and see if that has any impact on the flow. It’s worth a try since you have this pump installed internally.


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Old 01/12/2019, 03:02 PM   #59
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I don’t think this is a case of the Vectra falling short. I think it’s a case of not understanding the impacts of friction on actual head loss. As I said above, the output size of the pump has a direct impact on the impact plumbing will have on ultimate head/friction loss. I’d bet switching that flow meter from a 1” to a 1.5” would make a huge difference. I have spare ones here and took one and blew through it and they are surprisingly restrictive when it comes to friction loss due to the paddle wheel. Also, like Tim suggested, try taking the union nut off the intake of the pump and see if that has any impact on the flow. It’s worth a try since you have this pump installed internally.
Disagree.
If we know my system is standard and speak to most of tanks out there.
If we know that other pumps perform way better on my system than vectra.

Then my conclusion is true. I guarantee you if ppl including yourself actually measured your vectra u will be suprised.

Otherwise someone should give me a solution that I can apply on my standard 160g tank other than put your tank on the ground.after all this analysis and hydro dynamic calculation I do not see a suggestion to my standard system...I am willing to change my plum ingredients conpletly as far as I have a solution thay do not requir me to build custom tank lol...

From a customer point of view, my conclusion is correct since other pumps do not have this issue. that means other pumps more suitable to such tanks.

From technixhal stand point and from ecotech stand point, of course there is a reason why performance is what it is..but should this matter to customers? Would that justify spending such money on pump that do not output 75% of its rated flow??? I think not.

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Old 01/12/2019, 03:10 PM   #60
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Disagree.
If we know my system is standard and speak to most of tanks out there.
If we know that other pumps perform way better on my system than vectra.

Then my conclusion is true. I guarantee you if ppl including yourself actually measured your vectra u will be suprised.

Otherwise someone should give me a solution that I can apply on my standard 160g tank other than put your tank on the ground.after all this analysis and hydro dynamic calculation I do not see a suggestion to my standard system...I am willing to change my plum ingredients conpletly as far as I have a solution thay do not requir me to build custom tank lol...

From a customer point of view, my conclusion is correct since other pumps do not have this issue. that means other pumps more suitable to such tanks.

From technixhal stand point and from ecotech stand point, of course there is a reason why performance is what it is..but should this matter to customers? Would that justify spending such money on pump that do not output 75% of its rated flow??? I think not.

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And again, while I understand your contention, I think the Vectra is performing per its spec given your combined head and friction losses. Reduce your friction losses and your flow will increase. Obviously that will not change your point of view but I don’t think this is a case of the pump not performing per its spec. I think this is a case of friction losses robbing the pump of its potential. And I have given your some plumbing suggestions which will absolutely improve things for you.


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Old 01/12/2019, 03:15 PM   #61
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And again, while I understand your contention, I think the Vectra is performing per its spec given your combined head and friction losses. Reduce your friction losses and your flow will increase. Obviously that will not change your point of view but I don’t think this is a case of the pump not performing per its spec. I think this is a case of friction losses robbing the pump of its potential. And I have given your some plumbing suggestions which will absolutely improve things for you.
How? How to reduce friction losses?
How do you plumb a standard 160G tank and sump for a return rate of 1200 to 1600gph using vectra...
Please elaborate.
Reason why I am pressing you is because you are not providing solutions. Where I do not think there is any.


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Old 01/12/2019, 03:29 PM   #62
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How? How to reduce friction losses?
How do you plumb a standard 160G tank and sump for a return rate of 1200 to 1600gph using vectra...
Please elaborate.
Reason why I am pressing you is because you are not providing solutions. Where I do not think there is any.


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1) Increase the size of the flow sensor to the 2” model. That will reduce head loss by 1-2’ alone and I am betting closer to 2’. It could actually be even more.
2) Change the tubing between your PVC Wye and 3/4” bulkheads in the overflow from 3/4” to 1” and use a 1” elbow with a 3/4” bushing to connect to the 3/4” lockline bulkheads or a 3/4” threaded by 1” street L. Then use 1” barbs on the 1” elbows and the 1” PVC Wye with 1” tubing. Between the increase in tubing size and the increased barb ID, that will result in more than 1’ of reduced head loss. I’m guess those two changes alone will reduce headloss by 4’ and get you right where you want to be in terms of taget flow or even more with that pump. If you were to hard plumb that pump from the pump to the larger sensor and from the sensor to the bottom of the tank, you would see an even bigger improvement simply by eliminating those barb fittings.


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Old 01/12/2019, 03:43 PM   #63
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Again I remind you that most standard tanks have a drill hole for a bulk heads that transition to 3/4" loc line hoes.
My pvc out of the bulk head is 1", but all the line locs hose in the market are 3/4" meaning there is no escaping they eventually we need 3/4" at the end of the return line.
On a high flow system, you split the return into multiples, you don't try to jam all of the water through a single 3/4" fitting. That is a huge restriction and certainly isn't normal on larger systems. At minimum with the flow you are pushing you would split the return with a 1"pvc wye or tee before using a bushing to accept 3/4 loc line.

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Saying not all pumps are the same for me means: this is what it is, the performance am observing is vectra l1 capabilities.
You are observing a Vectra L1 performance when plumbed into a smaller system with restricted plumbing. It may seem simple, you may think what we are suggesting is abnormal, but it isn't. Pump manufacturers have been supplying barbed fittings for ease since before I was alive but recommend that they were plumbed with larger tubing.

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Originally Posted by ohashimz View Post
Saying vectra have 1.5" outlet and reduction impact vectra means: Vectra is not the right pump for standard tanks, and not suitable for tanks that requires above 700 800 gph return. Which if we apply the 5 to 10 times turn around means anything above 50 to 100gallon tanks.
No, that isn't what it means. If you had less restrictive plumbing then you would be able to run the pump much lower and achieve the same flow with a lower power usage. This is an advantage for DC pumps.

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vectra...
I just wished such data was available before I spent 500$ on vectra ha ha.
It is available and has been since before these pumps were on shelves. Even after people knowledgeable in this arena explain what is going on, you still blame the pump, but I believe it is solely the way the pump has been installed. There is really no reason to by a high flow/low head DC pump only to throttle it down by restrictions. That negates the point of a DC pump.

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I now feel much more at peace buying and RD3 which is not that much cost diffrence from vectra, or syncra 5.0 which more than half the price of vectra...
A RD3 100w is $850 vs a vectra L1 at $450. A $400 difference is substantial. The RD3 also handles head pressure differently than the Vectra. The Syncra is an AC pump ( and probably a good fit for your setup).

There may be something else at play here but I think the L1 just wasn't a good choice for your setup with its existing plumbing. It seems you have already moved on and we're beating a dead horse but if you want to fix the issues re-plumb it without the restrictions like Slief has pointed out and flow will be increased.


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Old 01/12/2019, 04:20 PM   #64
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1) Increase the size of the flow sensor to the 2” model. That will reduce head loss by 1-2’ alone and I am betting closer to 2’. It could actually be even more.

2) Change the tubing between your PVC Wye and 3/4” bulkheads in the overflow from 3/4” to 1” and use a 1” elbow with a 3/4” bushing to connect to the 3/4” lockline bulkheads or a 3/4” threaded by 1” street L. Then use 1” barbs on the 1” elbows and the 1” PVC Wye with 1” tubing. Between the increase in tubing size and the increased barb ID, that will result in more than 1’ of reduced head loss. I’m guess those two changes alone will reduce headloss by 4’ and get you right where you want to be in terms of taget flow or even more with that pump. If you were to hard plumb that pump from the pump to the larger sensor and from the sensor to the bottom of the tank, you would see an even bigger improvement simply by eliminating those barb fittings.
Appreciate the feedback. Will try these and update u

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Old 01/12/2019, 05:06 PM   #65
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Appreciate the feedback. Will try these and update u

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Please also remove the quick coupler from the intake


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Old 01/12/2019, 07:05 PM   #66
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Please also remove the quick coupler from the intake
What is the quick coupler?

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Old 01/12/2019, 07:05 PM   #67
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On a high flow system, you split the return into multiples, you don't try to jam all of the water through a single 3/4" fitting. That is a huge restriction and certainly isn't normal on larger systems. At minimum with the flow you are pushing you would split the return with a 1"pvc wye or tee before using a bushing to accept 3/4 loc line.



You are observing a Vectra L1 performance when plumbed into a smaller system with restricted plumbing. It may seem simple, you may think what we are suggesting is abnormal, but it isn't. Pump manufacturers have been supplying barbed fittings for ease since before I was alive but recommend that they were plumbed with larger tubing.



No, that isn't what it means. If you had less restrictive plumbing then you would be able to run the pump much lower and achieve the same flow with a lower power usage. This is an advantage for DC pumps.



It is available and has been since before these pumps were on shelves. Even after people knowledgeable in this arena explain what is going on, you still blame the pump, but I believe it is solely the way the pump has been installed. There is really no reason to by a high flow/low head DC pump only to throttle it down by restrictions. That negates the point of a DC pump.



A RD3 100w is $850 vs a vectra L1 at $450. A $400 difference is substantial. The RD3 also handles head pressure differently than the Vectra. The Syncra is an AC pump ( and probably a good fit for your setup).

There may be something else at play here but I think the L1 just wasn't a good choice for your setup with its existing plumbing. It seems you have already moved on and we're beating a dead horse but if you want to fix the issues re-plumb it without the restrictions like Slief has pointed out and flow will be increased.
Rd3 50 and 80 watt are at good price point and from the looks of it would give me higher flow as well...

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Old 01/12/2019, 11:42 PM   #68
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What is the quick coupler?

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The blue connectors.

They sell a Sch40 adapter to connect it to larger sch40 plumbing straight from the pump.

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vectr...iABEgIhivD_BwE


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Old 01/13/2019, 09:07 AM   #69
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I was referring to the loc lines. I have never seen loc lines more than 3/4"...these are the standards
That’s true. The first thing every reef keeper should do us throw all that locline away. Not only is it singularly pointless (trading velocity for volume) but it kills flow. I certainly cannot speak to red dragon or abyzz pumps as I’d never spend that kind of money on a pump, but all DC pumps are designed for optimal performance in low pressure applications.


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Old 01/14/2019, 03:59 PM   #70
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That’s true. The first thing every reef keeper should do us throw all that locline away. Not only is it singularly pointless (trading velocity for volume) but it kills flow. I certainly cannot speak to red dragon or abyzz pumps as I’d never spend that kind of money on a pump, but all DC pumps are designed for optimal performance in low pressure applications.
I tend to to agree with you now after I went through this. Dc pumps are not worth the money honestly.
Thay being said, my RD80 is pushing steady 1300gph on the same plumbing, so I am ol with the loc lines.
I would say no harm with loc line as long as you get a pump than can handle the pressure. AC pumps dp fantastic job there, and if you want DC oump pay attention to the real flow given they are all expensive any way.
I though I was saving 200$ by going vectra not RD I now realized I just wanted 500$ lol.

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Old 01/14/2019, 09:31 PM   #71
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I tend to to agree with you now after I went through this. Dc pumps are not worth the money honestly.
Thay being said, my RD80 is pushing steady 1300gph on the same plumbing, so I am ol with the loc lines.
I would say no harm with loc line as long as you get a pump than can handle the pressure. AC pumps dp fantastic job there, and if you want DC oump pay attention to the real flow given they are all expensive any way.
I though I was saving 200$ by going vectra not RD I now realized I just wanted 500$ lol.

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Man, I just read through this whole thread and one thing is abundantly clear; You just don't get it.

Your comparisons of the RD3 and the Vectra are basically equal to you complaining that you bought a ford F-150 pickup with a gasoline engine but it has a hard time towing 5,000 lbs, so you went out and bought a Chevy pickup with a Durmax Diesel and Allison transmission and now you can tow 10,000lbs - so obviously the Chevy is a better truck.

It doesn't work that way.

A pump can be designed for pressure, for flow or for both. You could put 20 different pumps all rated for 3100gph in your system and get 20 different flow rates. That alone doesn't mean that any one of those pumps is any better than another.

When setting up your return, you have to do one of two things - pick a pump that matches the plumbing that you already have or will have OR design your plumbing to match the characteristics of the pump you want to get.

You can't complain about a pump not performing as you expected it to when you put a high flow, low pressure pump in an undersized, highly restricted return setup.

You say that your plumbing is simple and indicative of the average? I beg to differ. Barb fittings are TERRIBLE. The inner diameter of a 1" barb is close to the inner diameter 3/4" hose. That restriction adds huge head losses; but it's not just the restriction - you also have to think about the turbulence that those hard corners add to the flow in the pipe.

You want the least restrictive flow possible? Get the BSPT to 1.5" Schedule 40 adapter for the Vectra, run spaflex up to a 1.5" bulkhead and use a 120 degree wye in the tank - it has a 1.5" spigot that will slip right into a 1.5" bulkhead and two 1" slips that you could then glue a 1" slip to 3/4" thread bushing and screw in your loclines.

Lastly, remember that you're not just paying for hardware. For many people the ability to sync up their Vectra, Vortech and Radion from a single app is worth the price of the pump over a $150 Syncra.

The Vectra didn't work for you? That's too bad. The RD3 works better? Great! But don't knock a pump that plenty of people are having no issues with because you put it in a situation that brings out it's worst attributes.

Remember; if you judge a fish by it's abilty to climb a tree.....


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Old 01/14/2019, 09:41 PM   #72
ohashimz
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tufkab View Post
Man, I just read through this whole thread and one thing is abundantly clear; You just don't get it.



Your comparisons of the RD3 and the Vectra are basically equal to you complaining that you bought a ford F-150 pickup with a gasoline engine but it has a hard time towing 5,000 lbs, so you went out and bought a Chevy pickup with a Durmax Diesel and Allison transmission and now you can tow 10,000lbs - so obviously the Chevy is a better truck.



It doesn't work that way.



A pump can be designed for pressure, for flow or for both. You could put 20 different pumps all rated for 3100gph in your system and get 20 different flow rates. That alone doesn't mean that any one of those pumps is any better than another.



When setting up your return, you have to do one of two things - pick a pump that matches the plumbing that you already have or will have OR design your plumbing to match the characteristics of the pump you want to get.



You can't complain about a pump not performing as you expected it to when you put a high flow, low pressure pump in an undersized, highly restricted return setup.



You say that your plumbing is simple and indicative of the average? I beg to differ. Barb fittings are TERRIBLE. The inner diameter of a 1" barb is close to the inner diameter 3/4" hose. That restriction adds huge head losses; but it's not just the restriction - you also have to think about the turbulence that those hard corners add to the flow in the pipe.



You want the least restrictive flow possible? Get the BSPT to 1.5" Schedule 40 adapter for the Vectra, run spaflex up to a 1.5" bulkhead and use a 120 degree wye in the tank - it has a 1.5" spigot that will slip right into a 1.5" bulkhead and two 1" slips that you could then glue a 1" slip to 3/4" thread bushing and screw in your loclines.



Lastly, remember that you're not just paying for hardware. For many people the ability to sync up their Vectra, Vortech and Radion from a single app is worth the price of the pump over a $150 Syncra.



The Vectra didn't work for you? That's too bad. The RD3 works better? Great! But don't knock a pump that plenty of people are having no issues with because you put it in a situation that brings out it's worst attributes.



Remember; if you judge a fish by it's abilty to climb a tree.....
Actually it is you who do not get it.
Let me try one more time in simple terms:

I am a customer, I do not care why something do not work and other works. I just care about getting what works. customers experince and data posted on forums is what I would follow...

I am comparing 2 pumps that are both positioned in the same market and the same industry as a high end aquarium DC pumps...end of story.
If there are fine prints it should be known, and if manufacturers are not saying it. We as customers share our experience so others know.

I wasted money on vectra and maybe it was my fault I trusted ecotech or I did not do enough technical analysis like you...it do not matter. At least by sharing my experience someone else avoid the same mistake if they need specific flow and have similar plumbing.

So before you insult me, think where am coming from.

I do not really care about you lengthy justification why vectra did not work on my setup while other pump worked.
Or your assumption that do not have data to back it up...

As an example: the reality is many ppl are complaining about vectra. See the rating on brs, see the forums are full with complaints.
So before you give wrong impressions to readers that my issue is isolated incident you should provide data like what I did..

As a customer I go with what work for me.

Cheers mate.




Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



Last edited by ohashimz; 01/14/2019 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 01/14/2019, 09:48 PM   #73
ohashimz
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 109
And btw the diffrence between vectra and Rd 80 is like 200$.
So its not that big of difference and as far as am concerned I wasted 500 not saved 200.
But that's not the point, I am not advocating RD, am just saying that's what I went with.

Cheers again

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Last edited by ohashimz; 01/14/2019 at 10:12 PM.
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