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Old 01/24/2019, 11:42 AM   #26
Uncle99
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I appreciate the input from all sides, I asked for help and got. I thank you for that!
What I did not anticipate is that a process could be two different things. The community appears to be split, dose calcium equal to ALK, dose only what ya need to maintain NSW levels.

I hoping it will not hurt if I match the calcium dose to the ALK. I can keep ALK stable at all times at 180 ppm with 15 ml of Seachem ALK fed through my doser. I will slowly raise the CA dose from 5ml to 15 over the next month and monitor carefully. I'm ok if it wastes some money, I just don't want to kill my corals.

Thank friends for helping me.


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Old 01/24/2019, 11:47 AM   #27
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Good to hear..happy reefing!


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Old 01/24/2019, 11:56 AM   #28
ReefWreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle99 View Post
I hoping it will not hurt if I match the calcium dose to the ALK. I can keep ALK stable at all times at 180 ppm with 15 ml of Seachem ALK fed through my doser. I will slowly raise the CA dose from 5ml to 15 over the next month and monitor carefully. I'm ok if it wastes some money, I just don't want to kill my corals.

Thank friends for helping me.
You should be fine to raise your calcium to match alkalinity. I've never seen calcium get depleted faster than alkalinity, though it certainly could happen.

The good news is that whatever it is, you can't overdose Calcium alone, so rest easy on that front.

Also, Reef Aquarium Rule #3 (I have no idea where the number of rules are or what they are, I'm making this up, but it is/should be a rule!) is to never dose anything you aren't testing for.

What this means for your current adventure is that you have automated dosers, great, but the most important thing is however much quantity you're dosing, make sure you're testing EACH of the two components. You can't go just by one test kit and assume that the ionic balance of the other matches, because it usually doesn't, especially if you've been only monitoring one for a long time.

If you're wondering how much of bulk adjustments you should be making to bring dosing in line, check out this widely-used and accepted calculator: http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html


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Old 01/24/2019, 05:53 PM   #29
Uncle99
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Originally Posted by ReefWreak View Post
You should be fine to raise your calcium to match alkalinity. I've never seen calcium get depleted faster than alkalinity, though it certainly could happen.

The good news is that whatever it is, you can't overdose Calcium alone, so rest easy on that front.

Also, Reef Aquarium Rule #3 (I have no idea where the number of rules are or what they are, I'm making this up, but it is/should be a rule!) is to never dose anything you aren't testing for.

What this means for your current adventure is that you have automated dosers, great, but the most important thing is however much quantity you're dosing, make sure you're testing EACH of the two components. You can't go just by one test kit and assume that the ionic balance of the other matches, because it usually doesn't, especially if you've been only monitoring one for a long time.

If you're wondering how much of bulk adjustments you should be making to bring dosing in line, check out this widely-used and accepted calculator: http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html
Still have great difficulty understanding the ionic balance thinking.
If NSW contains roughly 120-140ppm ALK and 420ppm Calcium, and my water emulates these proportions exactly, at all times, then based on the one to one consumption ratio, is there not enough ions of both at any one time, to contribute to the building if coral skeleton?

what do I look for or do to ensure the water is in ionic balance?
I have run my reef 26 months now, not lost anything, enjoy good growth, dosing 15ml Seachem Fusion 2 (Alk) and 5ml Fusion 1 (CA). Combined with a weekly 15% Water change with RED SEA PRO, I end up with:
180ppm ALK (around 10 DKH)
440ppm CA

I am I missing the point?

Or maybe I should have listened better in chemistry class!

Or maybe I am just nuts?
(Wife's guess)

Anyone?


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Old 01/24/2019, 07:49 PM   #30
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Here is a good way to look at it and these are not my words but from the article ive sent you the link to..
Imagine *a jar full of blue and white marbles. White marbles are calcium and blue marbles are alkalinity. Every second of every day your tank is pulling out one blue and one white marble. Eventually, the jar starts to empty. If you use a calcium supplement, you are adding more white marbles and no blue marbles, so the jar now becomes imbalanced. *But something else happens. As you add the white marbles, some of the remaining blue marbles fly out of the jar all by themselves (precipitation). Likewise, if you add alkalinity buffers to your tank, some of the white marbles would jump out of the jar. The more you dose, the worse it gets. For this reason, it is almost impossible to maintain balanced calcium/alkalinity levels in your tank using separate additives like “liquid calcium” and alkalinity buffers or baking soda.

Even if you have high calcium levels say, 500ppm your corals can’t use any of it if alkalinity is low.


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Old 01/24/2019, 07:53 PM   #31
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The article will also tell you the best way to achieve ionic balance using two part.


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Old 01/24/2019, 07:54 PM   #32
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Hope it helps bud.


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Old 01/24/2019, 08:43 PM   #33
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I wouldn't recommend quoting that site. A lot of the information was pretty good, but I don't think the article you liked specifically about two part use and the relationship between calcium and alkalinity are very good. I think they're oversimplified, and his example, while useful in a vacuum, causes confusion when applied to real life.

Randy's article, linked earlier in the thread, explains why this is the case, and explains why you can use more of calcium or more often alkalinity, than the other, and why almost all reefers who use two part, at some point have to increase their addition of alkalinity higher than their standard dose, while calcium stays at a lower dose.

In my old biocube, I used to have to dose about 40mL/day of alkalinity and only 30mL/day of calcium to keep the levels stable. As I understand it, this is a common situation with 2 part usage.

The reason that they're not used at the same rate is that calcium is precipitated into coral skeletons, and occasionally precipitated in other biological processes, however the hydroxide from the alkalinity gets used up in more biological processes, so it gets used up faster, because there are more, broader, biological processes going on in the tank than just skeleton building.

If we could observe a coral frag in an extremely simple setup with no other biological processes going on (impossible, but humor me for the example), then it may use calcium and alkalinity at an equal rate. But anything more than that single coral in an otherwise empty saltwater tank, and you're throwing off the balance.

This idea of "ionic balance" is a strange concept to me. Even with your example, just to apply it to the context of most hobbyists, I don't think most people keep their levels consistent 100% of the time. I also struggle personally to explain why calcium reactors work so well if they're distributing "ionic balance" which I don't dispute, however I have had to supplement when one level was off historically with a calcium reactor.

Here are a few interesting threads populated with some good information from knowledgable people:

Let's talk about Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium in an SPS Tank (sort of doesn't count, because I posted in it, though it frightened me how long I've been doing this)

And this one too:
dKh in sps tank: wich is the best value?

The reason I reference SPS-based threads is because SPS people tend to be more focused on their levels and the balance of them.


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Old 01/24/2019, 09:06 PM   #34
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Hey buddy please dont comment on my post as the post was meant for uncle99.. thanks.


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Old 01/24/2019, 09:11 PM   #35
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Not trying to sound harsh or disrespectful, but like i said am just trying to help uncle99 out without trying to get into ego battle.. thanks for understanding.


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Old 01/24/2019, 10:27 PM   #36
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Dosing equal amounts of the calcium and alkalinity supplements should be fine. If the calcium level starts to rise, it likely will do so gradually. You can compute the ppm contents of the daily dose, and work from there. I don't think I've ever heard of a problem from dosing equal amounts of both parts, for the cases where the supplements were made properly.

Quote:
Still have great difficulty understanding the ionic balance thinking.
If NSW contains roughly 120-140ppm ALK and 420ppm Calcium, and my water emulates these proportions exactly, at all times, then based on the one to one consumption ratio, is there not enough ions of both at any one time, to contribute to the building if coral skeleton?
Your tank will be fine if it's close to those levels. You are worrying too much. I seldom see calcium or alkalinity problems that are serious unless the levels drop very low.
Quote:
what do I look for or do to ensure the water is in ionic balance?
Dosing the two-part and doing two 10% water changes per month should be fine. You might need to dose magnesium, but that's rare.


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Old 01/24/2019, 10:30 PM   #37
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The basic concept of "ionic balance" is that the contents of the water in your tank should be close to that of natural seawater:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php

Seawater itself varies, so we're concerned mostly with the more common ions. Just keep up a reasonable water change schedule:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php


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Old 01/24/2019, 10:34 PM   #38
jilet
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Yes you are worrying too much lol. Do you know what you did differently to caused your alk to drop more than cal three months ago?


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Old 01/25/2019, 04:27 AM   #39
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Hey buddy please dont comment on my post as the post was meant for uncle99.. thanks.



Umm this is a discussion board, anyone can comment on anything you posted, or anything anyone posted. Get over yourself, your dead on wrong here.


In 20 years of on and off reefing, I have never dosed equal parts of 2 part. The science is right, just does not compute to real life situations.



For instance right now I have an 80G(total water volume)tank with a fairly large coral load, I dose 54ml of Randys DIY 2 part Alkalinity, and only 10ml of calcium. And yet my tank stays at 9DKH, 420 CAL. But according to anything you have posted, this should not work? And yet for my tank, its kept in balance by NOT dosing equal parts.



Now before you go on a tangent here and say that my WC 's are whats throwing off my ionic balance, I dose my WC water to match my display parameters so I do not throw anything off with my WC's.


The article Bertoni posted explain very well why in an enclosed environment the dosing of equal parts does not work. If you did not understand why after reading that article, perhaps you need to reread the article.


There are many more biological activities in our tanks that require some alkalinity and no calcium. These processes are why most reefers never dose equal parts.


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80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256

Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht:

"He's just taking his lunch to work"
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Old 01/25/2019, 04:41 AM   #40
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ROFLMAO I've read that preposterous article by Joe Jawaroski. If anyone tries what that moron is saying, you can kiss your corals goodbye.



Also since when is any commercial product better then a DIY supplement? According to this article Randy's DIY ALK is weaker and less refined then ESV 2 part. Pretty sure this guy has some vested interest in ESV. He cant stop talking about how good ESV 2 part is. lmao


FWIW

anyone with a keyboard is an expert now and has a blog. This article has no idea other then this guys own tank, what 2 part actually does or how it works. Just read through some of his "other" articles and you'll understand why no one should try what he's suggesting.


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80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256

Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht:

"He's just taking his lunch to work"
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Old 01/25/2019, 08:27 AM   #41
Uncle99
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Just wanted to thank all of you for your experiences.
It seems maintaining NSW ranges or equal dosing of both based on ALK consumption will lead to success.
I have been dosing to maintain NSW levels for more than 25 years and through my dosing pumps, I can maintain a stable ALK (180ppm), CA (440ppm) and Mag (1350ppm).
Based on my weekly water change schedule of 15% + dosing 15ml, 5ml and .5ml respectively and in 1ml amounts automatically during the day and night, my Maximum ALK swing is 10ppm at any time. The other two can be tested anytime with no fluctuation.

While I agree that adding the same amount of calcium as ALK should not impact anything other that my wallet, I just could not justify the change considering the long established results.

This all started with the notion that "the biggest mistake reef keepers make is not dosing equal amounts".

After input from you people, the experts, "the biggest mistake reef keepers make is changing something that's proven to work."

I have a ring around every Monti, and 1/4" extension of every SPS, all the time, so for sure, the corals have the components to create Skelton.

Thank again all, in the end, I am comforted that I am not doing anything wrong, that was my chief concern.

Cheers

Steve


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Old 01/25/2019, 10:39 AM   #42
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Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.


Let's keep the discussion centered on the chemistry.


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Old 01/25/2019, 10:51 AM   #43
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Thanks for that bertoni. Its a battleground! Wow, better to pm each other and stay out of posting.


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Old 01/25/2019, 11:24 AM   #44
Uncle99
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I think we are all very passionate towards our DT's.
That's what's makes this site, the best.

I won't mention members names but you know who you are. I decided to join RC on my latest rebuild and this time, I followed members advice instead of "I know better".

Now 26 months in, the results this time are spectacular, the result of of combination of many of you.

I must admit after more than a quarter century keeping reefs, having the reef central members watching my back is a great gift.

So thanks.


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Old 01/25/2019, 01:16 PM   #45
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Thanks for that bertoni. Its a battleground! Wow, better to pm each other and stay out of posting.
Not a battleground. Just a "forum", which by its nature and definition is " a public meeting place for open discussion". So participating in that discussion means that others can as well, and they can respond with contradictory experiences, suggestions, or thoughts. So it being an open conversation, by telling others to stop responding to you is inherently going against that. So in a way, you are right. If you do not want to participate in open discussion, a private message is certainly the best means of doing so. But I don't know why one wouldn't want open dialogue, we all serve to learn from it.


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My build thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422

Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
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Old 01/25/2019, 01:53 PM   #46
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Now 26 months in, the results this time are spectacular, the result of of combination of many of you.

I must admit after more than a quarter century keeping reefs, having the reef central members watching my back is a great gift.

So thanks.
The feedback is always appreciated. I'm glad you feel that the contribution of community members help. Sometimes it does stir up conversation, but rarely does it go . I think it's tough since few of us are actual scientists or follow rigorous methods, so it's always about evaluating evidence provided with a grain of salt, comparing it to established protocols set up by actual scientists or people who understand the details/science around it, and then ultimately choosing yourself which one makes sense to you.

We've been incredibly fortunate in this community to have excellent members with backgrounds that help us dispel myths and bring forward science and truths. Bertoni most recently, but Randy used to be a regular poster here, and Boomer was always a great help as well. I'm sure there are many (dozens, hundreds?) of extremely thoughtful, knowledgeable people who have helped in this forum and brought expertise to help guide the discussions here in the Chemistry Forum. They're the ones that deserve the most thanks (I don't thank them enough)!


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